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THE NEWGROUNDS WAR - DOCUMENTARY

2008-10-06 06:32:11 by Rina-chan
Updated

THE NEWGROUNDS WAR
by Rina-chan

You can download via Mediafire by clicking the above link, or for a direct, no-BS download of the mp3 itself, just click here. This upload is courtesy of rtil; please be considerate of his bandwidth by right clicking and choosing "save target as".
______________________

Clocking in at just under one hour long, it's finally done. I know the feuding has calmed down a bit since the time I called for submissions, but the issue is still relevant and probably always will be.

To give some background: At the beginning of the summer, I held an open call for audio submissions from any and all flash artists who had something to say about the rivalry between artists who spend time making high quality original submissions and artists who make quickly animated video game parodies. I gathered submissions from both groups and put everything together, divided into addressing the following issues:

+ What are the main factors which influence the popularity of a Flash submission?
+ Do you think the Newgrounds voting system is a fair assessment of the quality of a Flash, and why or why not?
+ What is your take on the feud and the reason it exists (or doesn't exist)?
+ Is there a solution?

Yes, it's long. I edited and cut as much as I could, but it's still nearly an hour, and I apologize. However, I suggest listening to it while doing something else like animating, studying, working, or even just stick it on your ipod for the next time you have a long commute. There's a lot of stuff in here.

BIG THANKS to the following artists for submitting:
The-Swain
Kirbopher
Billy Monks/MrChocobo
Aeonstars
Jimtopia
Elder99
Kenkaku
Weird0
RPGsrok
HadoukenDude
Rtil
Squeef/50vmp
CZ-Backlash
Jared Johnson
RabidSquirrelStudios
YungJazz
DonaldM
Gerkinman
SpedsOnAPlane
Omegafinal
Kliff
Anigen

All the background music was composed by my good friends DoctorAttitude and Nubbinownz and used with permission. You can find all these awesome songs for download at their audio portal pages! (The song at 40:20 was originally by Father of Death; Nubbinownz added the drums as part of a contest entry.)

Disclaimer for conspiracy theorists: This is intended to be an unbiased look at the current situation, which is why everyone who sent something in got their submission heard. I did not submit my own opinion nor will I state it here because 1) I can see both sides of the issue and 2) I want the documentary to allow each group to see where the other is coming from and let the listener come to their own conclusion on the matter. No, I don't expect that this will change anything on Newgrounds, nor was that my intention---I just thought it was an interesting debate and wanted to document it.

Check back soon for a bonus Easter egg!


Comments

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AngelProdigyAngelProdigy

2008-10-19 07:27:21

Win. <3


MrPrickHeadMrPrickHead

2008-10-18 12:13:04

Such big comments.......my head hurts


Megamike914Megamike914

2008-10-17 09:52:58

That was great. Really informative.


Luigi4everLuigi4ever

2008-10-16 20:55:35

hey that guy stole my line. I Loved you first lol but good job beautiful you are always my favorite voice actress.


WASPKOMMANDORWASPKOMMANDOR

2008-10-16 13:53:28

also, you should interview mindchamber
that would be hilarious


WASPKOMMANDORWASPKOMMANDOR

2008-10-16 13:43:16

Let's all listen to the intelligent criticism that flows from the Wasp Kommandor.

you makin me blush :)


VertVert

2008-10-16 12:34:28

Great stuff, 'grats on managing to compile such an massive amount of stuff into a (more or less) reasonable file! I think you've done a big service towards the comunity (albiet, only if people actually take the time to listen and reflect to what's being said). The effort must have been huge... and I think you selected some good artists to give their five cents on the matter. The only person missing is, of course, Ego, but I know that it was because he couldn't participate.

However, I do have one small criticism towards the documentary. I felt that there was one type of user that could have contributed in this file that was missing: the NG veterans. Why? Because, and you can trust me on this, NG has been through this sort of thing before.

Someone like ramagi or maybe poxpower, that has been consistently visiting the site since the very begining. They'd probably say that NG always has (and has had) this big debate / division on whether the certain movies are undually awarded attention or not.

For example, Xiaoxiao 3 (and stick movies that followed in it's footsteps) led to an outcry against stick movies. The whole LegendaryFrog vs a few artists (who I won't mention) thing from a few years back. The persisent attacks against sprite movies that come from the very start of the site.

Its nothing new, just now centerd towards a very specific type of movie: parodies. NG will outlast this, probably, but in the process some people will probably get burned...

Anywho, thanks again. This sort of comunity action will, I think, help clear up the air somewhat and maybe people will start cooling down a bit too. And since the effort it took was considerable, cheers and kudos are in order!


MindChamberMindChamber

2008-10-16 04:33:00

Apologizes if I came off too ruff, I really did think you had front Page and simply where only catering to the few opinionated and uniformed members of the site.

If any of the people you work with are half the friends they claim to be, they will allow you to upload a flash you co-auth, and that will give you frontpage access.

good luck on your future endeavors.


Metazoa54321Metazoa54321

2008-10-15 18:24:43

Interesting... I'm really beginning to ponder everything that is being said in this... erm... documentary. I have also noticed some very unfair/stupid votes like for some hard flash games, "cant beat it this sucks." It does seem really unfair.


MRatMRat

2008-10-15 04:54:05

This only worsens the problem.

Rina-chan responds:

Your mom only worsens the problem.


AeonstarsAeonstars

2008-10-14 14:35:42

spammers... losers... nerds... bitter... undeserving...

C'mon. Really? : /


MindChamberMindChamber

2008-10-14 12:59:36

and once again.. reiterating.

"Well where else is she going to post about this? I"

Like I said contact staff. SHes gonna claim theres an NG WAR? then do the shit right.

". I'm pretty sure most artists on this site check Rina-Chan's page if she makes a front page blog, since she's probably voice acted for every single one of us at one point or another."

I dunno, I think shes more popular in your mind than you think she is, and FP posts can disappear in 3 hours easily

"So there was no 'hush hush' objective on this project from Rina-Chan. "

Never fucking said it was hush hush, just half-assed....


MindChamberMindChamber

2008-10-14 12:51:05

Zombie, seriously, you are talking out your ass on this one.,
I never said any of these losers don't have a right to speak Im SAYING YOU CANT MAKE an UNBIASED report based on a few bitter assholes from NG. Im not saying SHES WRONG DUDE < IM SAYING SHE DIDNT FUCKIN FINISH> She only reported the few bitter assfucks that don't get the publicity THEY THINK THEY DESERVE, when there's plenty out there who DONT do videogame flashes, and get more their share of fame, stop writing and start reading.

Also Like I said, 3 fucking times already, There are plenty of artist who wouldve added their contribution if they knew about this, This call out wasn't as open as you claim she made one lame post on her blog and on TBA, and not everyone frequents her page, so stop calling this about passion and just about chance.

"What you see as a bad sampling, is really just a filtered sampling"

If that statement is fucking Biased, then I don't know what is.


WASPKOMMANDORWASPKOMMANDOR

2008-10-14 12:38:03

Let's imagine that we all live in a world in which "war" is actually a term for a shitty disagreement between some nerds nobody really cares about, a disagreement that never results to violence simply because all parties involved are pussies.

Rina-chan responds:

Let's all listen to the intelligent criticism that flows from the Wasp Kommandor.


Wraith2000Wraith2000

2008-10-14 11:31:15

I'm bored.

I would download the thingy, but FireFox keeps doing weird shit.


Zombie-PimpZombie-Pimp

2008-10-14 11:09:13

Well where else is she going to post about this? I guess she could have posted on the BBS as well, then again that would just attract even more worthless spammers. I'm pretty sure most artists on this site check Rina-Chan's page if she makes a front page blog, since she's probably voice acted for every single one of us at one point or another. So there was no 'hush hush' objective on this project from Rina-Chan. The point I'm making is that the fact that this broadcast is biased is a message within itself. Anyone who puts their voice into this is somebody who was passionate enough about this topic to spend their time doing so. If the end result is biased, its because the opinion of the passionate people are simply being reflected.

You say she's messed this up, but look at it this way. It's pretty obvious that while Rina-Chan has been around for a while, her big entrance into the flash scene as an independent writer/artist was with Brawl Taunts. And guess what? People flamed the fuck out of her for it. But instead of seeing a bunch of spamming retards, she saw a group of people who had a strong opinion on something. Instead of flaming them back or ignoring them, she developped a project that worked together with these people to help their voices be heard, and actually produce some content for this website. You don't see the novelty of this project because you're blinded by the fact that the opinion expressed differs from yours. But if there were other people out there with different opinions, they should have sent them in like the rest of these 'spammers'. What you see as a bad sampling, is really just a filtered sampling.


LuisLuis

2008-10-14 10:02:43

My only beef with it was that the panel was mostly just the same people who are always butting heads with each other. It all paints it up like all major artists are at each others throats when not everyone is.

Differing opinions enrich the scene and the contraversy itself is fine with me. It just would have been good to walk away knowing that theres artists who are heavily in the feud and at the same time some who are doing well and are nowhere near the feud and dance to their own drum without getting caught up in drama. NG is diverse and not everyone is bitter.


MindChamberMindChamber

2008-10-14 09:52:05

Hey Zombie Pimp, if you trying to make an unbaised open on the site and what the site has to offer you dont make a post on TBA, and just your blog
she fucked this up plain and simple. I personally do not care what half these spammers have to say about the site. they are all one sided,

Im sure if this OPEN CALL was MORE OPEN, she wouldve had different views,


LinkinInfernusLinkinInfernus

2008-10-14 05:44:20

After I listened to the whole thing, I knew I wanted to type something. First and foremost, thanks Rina-chan for getting people talking intelligently about this "war". I was very pleased with both the humorous and witty comments some of my favorite artists said about the whole issue. Very seldom is an audience member such as I, truly able to fathom the thoughts of the artist after the reviews of his or her work and how that particular artist views newgrounds as a whole.

Personally, my two cents on the mater (for what their worth), is that I feel - although it cliched- that you remarkable animation artists are losing the focus! I come to newgrounds to be entertained, whether their funny shorts or a long dramatic series. To me, what I view is based on the mood I'm feeling. I've been surfing newgrounds since Teletubby Funland no matter what my page now says. I've matured since those days, as has newgrounds, but I've also learned to respect different flashes. Although, if the artists don't experiment and change the whole thing becomes monotonous and unappealing. I, as a viewer, just want to see what people offer. I vote higher than average and attempt to give positive reviews in order to receive more.

Either way, we could rant about this (for an hour), but I just wanted to let any artist who reads these comments to just keep doing what you're doing, and we'll watch. Great job to everyone; thanks Rina for putting this whole thing together, thanks to the music staff for adding fantastic ambiance, and all the artist who contributed so I can get a piece of your all's mind! Oh, and thanks for actually reading this if you did.

Now, I'm gonna go watch some flashes! :)


Zombie-PimpZombie-Pimp

2008-10-14 01:18:32

Hey mindchamber, you're missing the point of this thing. Rina Chan asked for VOLUNTEERS to post their opinions, she didn't seek anyone out. Everyone who's voice was heard, felt strongly enough about this topic to volunteer their time to voice an opinion on it. You're saying she should go ask more popular artists who don't give a shit about this topic, but if she did that then we'd be listening to a bunch of people say "I don't give a shit about this topic." Just because you, and the artists you listed don't see this as an issue, doesn't mean that it isn't an issue to some people. Debate topics, by definition, are self-aware, meaning that the fact that 58 minutes of audio was produced on this topic is proof in itself that this is an issue to at least a few people on the website.


NegativeZeroNegativeZero

2008-10-13 23:30:31

._. interesting comments these days and kool o-o yea


ajgourlieajgourlie

2008-10-13 23:11:33

SUCK MY DICK YOU GAY ASSHOLE

Rina-chan responds:

Nah.


Elder99Elder99

2008-10-13 22:29:44

Geez, does my voice really sound like that?


shadowlegoshadowlego

2008-10-13 19:33:18

I see you did voice acting for dexterboy124,Guitarmasterx7 and that other guy that played mario or super 64 or skippy on youtube.
oo and beans was awesome you twat!!XD


MindChamberMindChamber

2008-10-13 14:43:58

Ok after finishing this up, I can officially say, what a load of trite bullshit nonsense.

and where the fuck did you find that panel? Squeef?,anigen,? HADOKENDUDE?

are you FUCKING SERIOUS?? Wheres Adam Phillips, Ed Skudder, , Leafworthy.. Vinnie Veritas, Ask any of these artist , who have had everyone one of their pieces showcased for months on the frontpage, if there is a war. And Im pretty damn sure they will ask you wtf are you talking about. This is some of the most inane OneSide Dribble I have heard in a long time. good luck with your journalist career.


MindChamberMindChamber

2008-10-13 12:45:32

Lol a creepy and ominous view based on zealous artist that know shit on how newgrounds works, instead of researching inside knowledge on how the system functions. nice job.


zeedoxzeedox

2008-10-13 08:27:52

That was an enlightening documentary that made me think very deeply about Newgrounds and my opinion. Thank you for putting this together. Your suggestion of listening to it while animating is useful.


CrUiZ3RCrUiZ3R

2008-10-13 06:22:02

Made me think, made me REALLY think. I'll always keep this in my mind.


lordiolordio

2008-10-12 17:36:42

I listened to it, and I'm not sure a split in any form in Newgrounds would necessarily be the right path. I think then NewGrounds itself (Tom, Wade, etc.) would enter the debate, because they would have to give out twice as many awards as they do now, unless no awards were given to parody artists, neither of which I think is really fair.

I hear the "serious" artists' complaints, but I don't think there's any way NewGrounds can change to accommodate their concerns. NewGrounds' motto is "Everything, by Everyone."

The only workable solution would be to remove the point of contest, the prizes for the daily awards. Then the VG Parodists wouldn't be "stealing" anything of any real value from Serious Artists. But I don't think that's what people want to have happen, right?

In short, I think NewGrounds should stay just the way it is. The people will do what they will, and there's no stopping them from annoying the bejeezus out of everyone else.


GalazorGalazor

2008-10-12 15:42:44

I have actually been thinking about something like this for a while. I think what it comes down to is what is each person's balance of entertainment value vs. overall quality.

I think people sometimes overestimate the majority of the people who come to Newgrounds. For quality flashes to be fairly judged and critiqued I seriously think that a different sort of site is needed. Most people I know who have heard of this site only come here for a quick laugh. So I think that the artists who actually want to make progress in their work that they're pitching their stuff to the wrong audience, a mostly impatient and insipid lot. Btw I'm listening to the documentary right now and I think it's awesome :).

In a nutshell: I feel that the whole conflict is between the direction that Newgrounds wants to take and the direction the artists (who are upset about all this) want to take. Since the staff of NG needs to run a business they need flashes that attract customers, it seems that the upset artists want a sophisticated artistic medium to share their work and I don't think Newgrounds can still offer that in its current condition.


KlifeKlife

2008-10-12 01:24:18

Amazing work, lady.

Great to be part of it...

Please, next time you come up with a cool idea like this one, I would love to help. ^^

Keep it up. o/


OraznerOrazner

2008-10-11 16:58:00

Apart from the uneeded dramatic tone, it was interesting to hear about the situation from the actual animators themselves


guitar-fishguitar-fish

2008-10-11 14:58:27

i found this very insightful made me think about the voters and how retarted they can be but how in it they say the most of the voters that are 11-14 the animation they watched just made them laugh a little or its a parady of a game they like or know and give a 5 knowing it most likely desurved a 2 or 3 i dont think every young kid on here is like that you see im one those 14 year old kids and i vote on each animation that i feel like with it humer quality and time they worked on it in mind not that it a game parady or random swearing because that doesnt make a good animation thats just retarted so that my opianion


grizlybrogrizlybro

2008-10-11 14:40:27

I Really wish I would have known about this. This is a subject I've felt strongly about for a long time now.
My submissions right now aren't the best and I know that but, that doesn't mean I can't tell when something is pure crap. When I vote on a submission part of what I look at is what that author has done in the past to see if there making any progress. I also look at the overall creativity of the animation or game, and the most important part of it is the authors comment because that explains why the animation looks as good or as bad as it is.
Voters today watch a flash animation and look for references to movies or games they may like, and base their vote purely on that rather then looking at the quality of the submission or the message the author is trying to send.
And I think half the problem is the voting system. It doesn't do a good job of defining what each number represents and so the voter really doesn't know how to vote truthfully. Because of this they stick to a thumbs up or thumbs down method determined by an unseen panel of hipster judges, ultimately resulting in a vote powered by the populous.
Of coarse this is just my opinion of the mater.
If you do something like this in the future please tell me about it I would love to be a part of it.

-Grizlybro-


deevvondeevvon

2008-10-11 14:38:07

After listening to that, I agreed on adapting to a new sort of separative system. Having two sides of Newgrounds, one for simplistic, and one for...how should I put this, deserving.

I suggest having two sides of the front page, like popular simplistic front page cartoons and games on the right side, and popular hard worked on cartoons and games on the left side. Each adapting to different opinions. Nothing really will be noticed unless it's on the front page.

Since there are so many people putting flash into the portal every given day. Having 12 spots for each movie and game category, is absolutely blasphemy. Unless you adapt to the idea I put on the last paragraph, at least put more spots on the front page without having very talented artists get struck down with 30 second - 1 minute game parodies with no work put into it at all (No names needed to be said).

Kira, I'm taking you and Chris for example. When Brawl Taunts came out, you each admitted to putting no work into it, not expecting it to be popular. In the end, it got front page for I believe a month and a half, around there. I enjoyed it a lot, but putting decent work aside and leaving cartoons like that to get more popular is complete bullshit.

I'm really glad you put this together.

Thanks.


jamboreenjamboreen

2008-10-11 07:34:30

I found it to be an excellently made documentary, it really showed how things are and some guys in there actually had some nice and reasonable solutions.


KoalafishKoalafish

2008-10-10 10:21:24

This was pretty interesting and some points were brought up I never would of thought of. Though I think some changes some people wanted were a little too drastic and including them to newgrounds would be alot more complicated that it would sound.

I'd hate to say I wish it made so and so, but I have to say I really would like to hear Tom Fulps opinion on this 'war'. From what I've seen he hasn't let an opinion out and I sortof think that he just wants to be seen as a good guy so he stays out of harms way.


KajenxKajenx

2008-10-10 07:13:49

Well it was interesting. I think changing anything is silly though. Newgrounds is the greatest free-for-all melting pot in existence today. Who cares if you spent a year on something and it doesn't get a good score. It doesn't mean it's bad, it just means Newgrounds didn't like it, and NG is a many headed beast.

Also, ripping on Egoraptor is getting old, he's one of the best animators on here. He reminds me of Tex Avery. :3


ComputercrashxComputercrashx

2008-10-09 21:02:42

I think the things people said throughout the whole thing kind of connected to me a lot and what was said was really something people needed to hear. I personally haven't put anything major on newgrounds but when people were saying things about the way some original projects are overshadowed by fan stuff, well it made me consider thinking about if I really wanted to pursue my original plot ideas or if I should maybe get known through some fan stuff. To be honest I still don't know, but I feel people are trying their hardest to make the voting more fiar and the judging more fair, so while I don't know what my first real flash will be, because of some of the people like these in this whole thing, I feel maybe my first flash will be judged more fairly, so good job people!


Zombie-PimpZombie-Pimp

2008-10-09 11:48:04

Aww, someone in there mentioned 'House of 1000 Cats' as being awesome. I'm blushing.

This is amazing work! Very well-edited and organized. I really like this interview series, I enjoyed the comic-con video interviews too. I feel like NG has its very own journalist. Keep up the great work, and keep capturing the voice of newgrounds.


Cz-BacklashCz-Backlash

2008-10-09 06:01:56

Kodoos Kira. Super Kodoos.


ZekeySpaceyLizardZekeySpaceyLizard

2008-10-08 20:32:35

labusch is an alt btw


FloodmasterFloodmaster

2008-10-08 16:18:21

rtil sucks dick.


JakBaronKingJakBaronKing

2008-10-08 04:56:17

I just Finished it...

The last statement around 51 minutes said just how I feel about Newgrounds.

Newgrounds isn't stupid...it's the people who act stupid.

Art is perceived differently, is objectionable, and is often unappreciated or misinterpreted (a Good example is the ending of Jazza's flash : The Composer - how everyone goes for the IN thing Rock Concert and forgets about the Composer)

People are SELFISH...they only seek to entertain THEMSELVES.

But being an Artist is Passionate and only for Heart.

There is a distance difference between artist and an artist out to seek idolization.

We should all just learn to enjoy our talents...and forget what the people who criticize and review.

We Create...because we WANT to...not to seek Fame...

"He who idolizes himself...has no inner light."

Thank you for all your Hard work Rina...and thank you "rtil" for your upload of an MP3 format.

-JBK


AeonstarsAeonstars

2008-10-08 04:47:28

Big-Mama, you are either a comedic genius or... WOW.


PiGPENPiGPEN

2008-10-08 00:29:56

Sausage Fest.


TomaMotoTomaMoto

2008-10-07 23:29:26

I can't say I care for the dramatic tones, but I appreciate all the work you put into this, Kira. And between you and me and everyone who reads this comments, I think all this "controversy" can be a good thing for the site as a whole as far as keeping the community active. I don't wish any hurt feelings, but the feuding provides enough points of interest to keep more people coming back more often, hence keeping Fulp and Co. off the streets. So yeah, thanks for that. I love this place and I wouldn't change anything about it... well, community-wise anyway.


ifailtestsnotifailtestsnot

2008-10-07 23:11:01

awesome...not much else to say


squeakytoadsqueakytoad

2008-10-07 22:46:13

SERIOUS BUSINESS


FrozenFireFrozenFire

2008-10-07 22:43:22

Yeah, I listened to to the whole thing. Of course I agreed and disagreed, but I kept thinking to myself, If someone listened to this and had no Idea of any of these people, would they find this as a geeky rant or actually care what these people had to say?

I also believe that the idea expressed involving a separate zone exclusively for animators and musicians to give strong useful artistic advice, while allowing the submission to be viewed and commented by the general public as well is a good idea. (CZ-Backlash?)

You would then have "Reviews" and "Comments"
Reviews would allow you to see if you satisfied the Artistic community while the Comments permit you to see how the community loves it as a whole. The rating system would still be an issue though.